, he's unpopular in egypt because he supported us." in gaza, with the iraq war, with rendition, et cetera, and his people knew it. and that is the issue, i think, that our friends and allies are threatened, on the governmental level, by the relationship with us, and it creates the opening for extremists and for iran to sort of play off that resentment. tom gjelten: i'd argue that ghraib had a lot more to do with that than gitmo. michael hayden: yeah, you know, this is tiered. abu ghraib is the one that -- tom gjelten: yeah, okay. michael hayden: -- really branded behavior, and we all agree that was incorrect, even though we argue about one or another aspect of guantanamo. tom, can i just offer just a, just a, maybe, a slightly different view, i'm talking about the deep fight. okay, for 10 or 11 years, the deep fight, unfortunately, was about one of the world's great monotheisms, and what it meant, and we have no legitimacy whatsoever in talking about that. i know we're multicultural and so on, but broadly, we're judeo-christian, we're